Sound Testing on G4

pwabixcpp · Post by **pwabixcpp** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:24 am

Today I also did some testings.
So I did this:
Scope S/P pci card in G4 dual1.25 on system9.2

connected with optical cable with RME Fireface 800 like standalone converter to monitors genelec S30D in studio.

I played track from SparkXL thru asio16 bit driver stereo on scope platform routed directly to adat out.

Track that I played sounds much inferior on scope where was slave to (Fireface800 because it has superior word clock(StedyClock-No Jitter) And than in the OSX on Peak 4 CoreAudio driver where sound was really nice and dynamic wide stereo. And when the scope is set on master mode it is even worse.Bass freq on scope are undefined(boomy) and no definition also.
On OSX:
Difference is this: Stereo is much wider ,high freq. was much more defined and that's why I heard Eff on voice much more better.Dynamic was better too.Bass really precise and defined.
Conclusion: Asio driver is not for professional use for shure.
That's why I spent two years trying to make high quality mix and I never succeded.But with LogicPro6 it was peace of cake. That dither system Powr is perfect.No more tiny little sound on 16 bit.Cubase is definitly out ,and it never worked perfectly.I used Cubase since version 2 and it never was flawless like Logic.

And I tryed this: I did the same thing without asio driver playing audio from sample editor in sts3000 and sound was litlle better but not like in OSX core dirver.
So I did compare with Master-Slave in Scope/Sp
The sound was better in slave mode connected on Fireface800 .

I see now very good Creamware platform is not on high end level like it was wroted on opening logo ,and they removed it later.

Things are clear. Test it !

p.s.

Please Do Not reply on ,if you are not Tested drivers ,soundcards,or else.

[ This Message was edited by: pwabixcpp on 2005-03-05 09:22 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:18 pm

I dunno man.. I've done some commercial work on CW platform and they sure sounded okay to me. But well, my CW cards are in a XP machine so that may make a difference. For me, pulsar is always master (because I don't sync anything else) and use ASIO all the time in Cubase.

Is there something inherently wrong with Mac ASIO? I'm asking because I also have a powerbook G4 setup. I know audio units is supposed to be the newer, better standard, but I still haven't seen too many of them.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2005-02-27 14:22 ]

Post by **garyb** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:58 pm

SPAM.

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:51 pm

Poor workers blame their tools

Stige · Post by **Stige** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:22 pm

I think we should listen to Deneb's opinion.
Two things that I've came across:
1. I heard from a local studio owner here in my city, that Pulsar cards has weak dynamics. They noticed it after moving to RME cards.
2. When I was testing my Behringer ADA8000 adat box, I strangely noticed that when setting up pulsar as slave and behringer as master, things sounded somehow better. And all this was just playing through pulsars own DA, only changing sync settings.

These two things are said in Deneb's post too but with different words. It just raises some thoughts. Generally I'm happy with Pulsars sound. Everything that has nothing to do with ASIO, like synths, VDAT etc. sounds excellent. But there is definitely something wrong with the asio drivers. I can't believe, cubase can mess up the sound that badly, even when feeding every channel separately out.
Anyway, just my opinions and observations.
Cheers

[ This Message was edited by: Stige on 2005-02-27 19:26 ]

pwabixcpp · Post by **pwabixcpp** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:29 pm

off

[ This Message was edited by: pwabixcpp on 2005-03-05 09:23 ]

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:50 pm

2. When I was testing my Behringer ADA8000 adat box, I strangely noticed that when setting up pulsar as slave and behringer as master, things sounded somehow better. And all this was just playing through pulsars own DA, only changing sync settings.

That's usually what you will want to do with ADAT, set the recording device as master and Pulsar/Card as slave. No rocket science here. Otherwise you'll get sync problems, which would explain your lower-quality perception (it used to crackle on my setup with Pulsar as master.) The same will happen with any other ADAT units.

Also deneb's comments aren't really clear, but it sounds like he compared the Pulsar card's onboard D/A converters with an RME Digiface, which is an out-board unit (as opposed to the Pulsar card's DAC, which sit inside the computer case with the card.)

OBVIOUSLY, you will get a better sound with an RME with this setup, any "Pro Engineer" should know that the inside of a computer case is shock full of RF interference that will alias into your signal, and thus it's not where you want D/A conversion to happen.

The same will happen with any other card with similar configuration. Should you have taken time to compare the RME Digiface with, say, an A16U, you would probably have found that both units provide pretty similar quality. This has nothing to do with ASIO or Cubase (altho I'd be careful with Cubase, whatwith their Analog Tape Emulation Thinger Whatever They Call It <tm>)

I agree that 44.1khz is a bit low, but this has nothing to do with Pulsar or Creamware or RME, and there's plenty of really high quality 44.1khz CDs around to proove that you can at least get decent quality with 44.1khz.

pwabixcpp · Post by **pwabixcpp** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:09 pm

off

[ This Message was edited by: pwabixcpp on 2005-03-05 09:22 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:06 pm

On 2005-02-27 21:09, deneb wrote:
...
I didn't want to argue with anyone I just saying Test IT.

well, you have the right to change your mind, but in your original post you also drew some conclusions...

it has been mentioned before that any Scope board synced to a quality studio clock does indeed gain some sound quality.
Noticable, but for many not worth the extra expense. At least the option exists.

As mentioned further up (and in various other theads) the Cubase audio engine seems to bear some malicous capabilities.
It cannot be the Asio driver if people get sigificantly better results in (say) Samplitude through the same driver.

You may work as a professional, but finally you're only human - as your post in the Announcement section about a 'serious ambience reverb' shows

I wouldn't hold my breath on your judgement about AD/DA conversion quality if you didn't notice THOSE artifacts (it's not a matter of taste)...
irony intended - no offence

cheers, Tom

Post by **garyb** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:24 pm

*yawn*
another "serious" engineer who has bad ears and an axe to grind. the point about ambience is well taken. personally, i like the plugin, and think it has a nice sound, but it is hardly "high quality" when compared to even old cheap things like an spx90, a dep-5, rev7, lexicon lxp1 etc.. it is not even the equal to warp69's devices or for the job of creating a natural space, even masterverb.

everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but this "comparison" is crap, and even a little insulting. so far, scope has had grammy nominations and academy awards. regardless of sour grapes it is sufficient to do first quality work in the hands of a good engineer, that is obvious from the get go. my clients always come back to my little nothing studio even over "real" facilities because it sounds good. that's enough, period. if you like something else better, use it. there's no need to try to poison this forum, however.

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-02-27 22:26 ]

Post by **hubird** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:00 pm

hhmmmwwaaahh...

wayne · Post by **wayne** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:05 pm

tee-hee

Stige · Post by **Stige** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:06 am

As mentioned further up (and in various other theads) the Cubase audio engine seems to bear some malicous capabilities.
It cannot be the Asio driver if people get sigificantly better results in (say) Samplitude through the same driver.

I have had a chance to compare only Cubase, Tracktion and VDAT. No need to say that VDAT is superior among the other two

I can't hear much difference comparing Cubase and Tracktion, but I feel there is something 'wrong' how they sound, no matter how many asio bus out I use.
I'd love to use VDAT, but I can't use it without VCR, which doesn't work.

I have been playing with Samplitude 8 demo in my internet pc, via onboard crap soundcard and my mixing speakers. It sounds great.

All this have made me wondering if there really is something wrong with scope ASIO drivers. Again, want to stress that this is just my observation, not a fact

Peace

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:12 am

What is not working with VRC?

I use vrc-s + vdat all the times

Stige · Post by **Stige** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:37 am

On 2005-02-28 10:12, marcuspocus wrote:
What is not working with VRC?

I use vrc-s + vdat all the times

I don't know why, but if I save my project with VRC, it craps out when I next time try to load it

It reads that there is no VDAT connected to it, even though there is. Reconnecting VRC doesn't fix it, still don't recognise VDAT. I have to delete it and load a new VRC (or a new VDAT, not sure which one, I gave up a long time ago). But then I loose all my locator points.
I haven't found a cure for this so far.

[ This Message was edited by: Stige on 2005-02-28 10:42 ]

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:15 am

Ok, you're right, but, it's not vrc, is vdat itself...

Just reload vdat. Pretty annoying, i admit

You will not loose any locator point. I think it's related to the order in which vrc / vdat are loaded.

But, hey, vdat recording is pristine quality, the price to pay, isn't too high for me...

pwabixcpp · Post by **pwabixcpp** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:24 am

[off

[ This Message was edited by: pwabixcpp on 2005-03-05 09:23 ]

pwabixcpp · Post by **pwabixcpp** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:54 am

[/quote]

I have had a chance to compare only Cubase, Tracktion and VDAT. No need to say that VDAT is superior among the other two

[/quote]
To Marcuspocus: I agree with you!
From this topic we can see that Stige have very good hearing (monitors) on his system.
for other ones --I am not shure!!!

[ This Message was edited by: deneb on 2005-03-01 08:01 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:27 am

man.. talk about being hot blooded. Cool down man, take it easy.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:24 am

On 2005-03-01 07:54, deneb wrote:
...
From this topic we can see that Stige have very good hearing (monitors) on his system.
for other ones --I am not shure!!!

well, I'm not shure HOW my ears survived my clubbing youth, but I'm rather happy with my remaining abilities...

I do hear (and get annoyed) by the hf-noise of a SHUT DOWN iMac, my DSL router, or the screen regulation sound of a black Powerbook G3 (ever read someone complained about those ?)

amused and kidding, Tom