MIDI Tuning extensions needed for all Creamware synths!

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:59 pm

MIDI Tuning Extension[url] [url=http://www.midi.org/about-midi/t ... extension
Tuning Scales

MIDI tuning extension is desperatly needed for making music with Creamware synths.

It is needed to follow the Just Intonation principle.

Just Intonation defined...

MIDI Tuning Scale is needed to play all the music that doesn't fit with equal tempered scale...

A lot of the VSTi synths already have microtuning and tuning scale capacities.

With Creamware synths, a poor workaround is to use the MIDI pitch-bend and set it properly for the need. But this workaround suit only to monophonics musical parts and leads to complications that aren't music friendly, and aren't DSP friendly.

(Edited, sorry for my languages errors)
How comes that Creamware synths have an unbelievable sound, and that regarding MIDI for Music (with a capital "M"), they are toys?
(Edited, sorry for my languages errors)

COME ON, CREAMWARE!

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-12-30 14:08 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-01 07:33 ]

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:32 pm

ok, im not familiar with microtuning at all, but i know Cubase SX has a MIDI plugin which enables microtuning, and i would suspect other sequencers has it as well.

and to the best of my knowledge, this would enable you to use microtuning with sfp synths.

please correct me if im wrong.

if u are looking for a microtuning DEVICE that will operate from within SFP, well i guess i cant help you.

[ This Message was edited by: piddi on 2004-12-30 22:33 ]

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:32 am

Hi Piddi,

Sure, there is a workaround to operate CW synths with other scales and microtuning. This workaround simply isn't neither user friendly nor DSP friendly. The workaround is to load several identical monophonic instances of one CW synth with the same sound preset, and to operate them with separate MIDI channels and different MIDI pitchbends applied to each single MIDI channel. Imagine what this can give if loading several instances of Six-string is wanted. It becomes a nightmare.

Thinking that I can't have any hope in an SFP v5 coming soon to correct the problem with complete MIDI implementation in all the CW synths, I know now that I have to put my attention on what happens with VSTis, to find where are the serious musicals capacities. It's unfortunately simple as that. I regret it a lot, because CW synths have a tremendous sound.

BR,
Grok

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:16 am

I know now that I have to put my attention on what happens with VSTis, to find where are the serious musicals capacities.

Not to underrate your needs, but I guess without this feature have been made lots of serious music

Post by **hubird** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:34 am

as a workaround you also can do this:
record your midi information, your playing.
Then go to the Logical Editor of Cubase (dunno other sequencers), and define the pitch fine tuning for all same notes of your track at once that need to be adjusted to the scale of your song.
BTW, is it really thát normal to expect synths to have microtuning implementation?

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-12-31 09:36 ]

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:40 pm

Sorry to say, but I feel that there are not that many musicians who would agree with you that microtuning is a requirement for all MIDI synths. As to your characterizing all the Scope synths as "toys" due to a lack of micro-tuning, I think that shows a complete lack of tact on your part.

I have to ask why you would have chosen the Scope platform at all if you were aware that this feature was not implemented, seems kind of unintelligent to complain about it after the fact. I don't believe that Creamware made any claims that this was a feature of their synths. Or are you just being critical
for something to do, and don't even own any Creamware products? If all you want to do is annoy us, don't bother...go and play with all your "serious" micro-tuning synths, and leave us alone.

R

okantah · Post by **okantah** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:56 pm

nprime...sure very good,ineed not to say anything.
cheers

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:11 pm

On 2004-12-31 09:34, hubird wrote:
as a workaround you also can do this:
record your midi information, your playing.
Then go to the Logical Editor of Cubase (dunno other sequencers), and define the pitch fine tuning for all same notes of your track at once that need to be adjusted to the scale of your song.
BTW, is it really thát normal to expect synths to have microtuning implementation?

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-12-31 09:36 ]

Thanks for the idea Hubird. But this would be an intellectual way to play the music, I would prefer to directly hear what I play, directly in the proper desired scale!... It's better for the feeling, at least for me...

BTW, is it really that normal to expect synths to have microtuning implementation?

I don't really know what "normal" is, but from a modern musical point of view, this should be a basic feature for any 2005 synth... Because of the musical freedom it allows. The common equal tempered scale is musically poor, this is a well known fact.

A lot of modern composers have abandoned the equal tempered scale and use others scales... e.g. Wendy Carlos...
A lot of musics can't be played in the equal tempered scale...
Equal tempered scale is a technical and musical limitation coming from the past. There is no need to a such limitation in today music, with current modern technology.

Happy new year to all,
Grok

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-12-31 21:30 ]

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:19 pm

Bad musicians blame their tools =P

But more seriously, the SDK is out, so you can just pick it up and cook up synths that will do whatever you want. Try it, it's fun!

wayne · Post by **wayne** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:50 pm

I remember playing music in a scale where the 2nd is 1/3 semitone sharp if you're heading up the scale, 1/3 semitone flat on the way down.

That would be difficult.

No help to you, i'm sorry! I suppose monophonically i'd probably use a fretless bass and some Flexor Pitch 2 CV arrangement

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:47 am

On 2004-12-31 23:19, symbiote wrote:
Bad musicians blame their tools =P

But more seriously, the SDK is out, so you can just pick it up and cook up synths that will do whatever you want. Try it, it's fun!

Sorry, I'm not allowed to the SDK, I have only 11 DSPs.
If I had it, I'm not sure I would have the time to play with it, but thank you for the suggestion anyway!

The hardware synths I bought in the 90's allows some kind of microtuning...

Be you a good or a bad musician, it's impossible to play something like Handel (this given just as an example)with the equal tempered scale... The very vast majority of the music is simply not playable with the equal tempered scale...

So it makes sense to have synths that simplifies these scales stories for the musicians, making it direct, intuitive and not cumbersome . Regarding this, SFP is currently a toy, not a tool. Hoping this will evolve... The quicker the better.

Cheers,
Grok

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:59 am

On 2004-12-31 23:50, wayne wrote:
I remember playing music in a scale where the 2nd is 1/3 semitone sharp if you're heading up the scale, 1/3 semitone flat on the way down.

That would be difficult.

Right on the topic! This is the kind of thing that has to be solved, I'm currently trying to check what solutions exist in native...

No help to you, i'm sorry! I suppose monophonically i'd probably use a fretless bass and some Flexor Pitch 2 CV arrangement

With chords progressions, it becomes complicated! (not impossible, but too much cumbersome, like I tried to explain in the posts above, and I apologize for my very imperfect english and my languages errors)

Cheers,
Grok

Kymeia · Post by **Kymeia** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:23 am

Microtuning would be very useful to me though I have several VSTi's that can do this. Maybe a small midi device would be the best approach rather than modifying each synth?

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:34 pm

I'm not sure what host you've got, but there is a VST plug-in from Tobybear called Microtuner. You download it as part of his Midibag products.

If your host supports VST midi, this may be handy for you.

Microtuner supports SCALA, VAZ and Anamark tuning files.

As it has a midi input and output, it will take your midi input process it with the tuning file you've used and then presumably send it on to your output (ie Creamware card).

You'll have to experiment with this to see if it works. I don't have Creamware set up on a computer at the moment so I can't tell.

Midibag (with Microtuner) is donationware so if you find it is useful you can donate some money to Tobybear for supplying such a useful utility.

And if it doesn't work? Well - you haven't really lost anything but some time to try it out.

http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html

_________________
Caleb

Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.

[ This Message was edited by: caleb on 2005-01-01 13:35 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:41 pm

On 2005-01-01 07:47, Grok wrote:
... Be you a good or a bad musician, it's impossible to play something like Handel (this given just as an example)with the equal tempered scale... The very vast majority of the music is simply not playable with the equal tempered scale...

well, that kind of music isn't playable on an 'electronic' instrument anyway. Learn a real one and all scale problems are fixed

Honestly, this is in no way related to sophistication or quality - it's just two different approaches to 'music'.

Of course anyone appreciates additional features, but imho there are more important things to fix than 'scales' that 80% of the users don't even know about and 99% will never use.
I assume that CWA isn't the main supplier for 'eastern' (viewed from my geographic position) traditional music gear...

I personally hate microtuning because it blocks my TX802 in a certain way...

cheers, Tom

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:25 pm

I tried with Microtuner ... well it's kinda working but most often it seems the synths are choking and giving up under MIDI " pressure ", the plug puts the required amount of pitchbend on each note depending on the microtuning file.
Well it's on my setup maybe on others ...

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:18 pm

On 2005-01-01 13:34, caleb wrote:
I'm not sure what host you've got, but there is a VST plug-in from Tobybear called Microtuner. You download it as part of his Midibag products.

If your host supports VST midi, this may be handy for you.

Microtuner supports SCALA, VAZ and Anamark tuning files.

As it has a midi input and output, it will take your midi input process it with the tuning file you've used and then presumably send it on to your output (ie Creamware card).

You'll have to experiment with this to see if it works. I don't have Creamware set up on a computer at the moment so I can't tell.

Midibag (with Microtuner) is donationware so if you find it is useful you can donate some money to Tobybear for supplying such a useful utility.

And if it doesn't work? Well - you haven't really lost anything but some time to try it out.

http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html

_________________
Caleb

Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.

[ This Message was edited by: caleb on 2005-01-01 13:35 ]

Thanks Caleb for this very interesting link. I'm currently checking Fractal Tune Smithy that is also packaged with Scala, and will check your link too, Microtuner seems a little bit more convenient since it is VST (Tune Smithy is standalone AFAIK).

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:22 pm

On 2005-01-01 16:25, decimator wrote:
I tried with Microtuner ... well it's kinda working but most often it seems the synths are choking and giving up under MIDI " pressure ", the plug puts the required amount of pitchbend on each note depending on the microtuning file.
Well it's on my setup maybe on others ...

If you tried it with only one instance of a CW synth, it could be because of Microtune sending MIDI note messages on several MIDI channels, with an individual pitch bend for each channel, and that the CW synth you use is setted as "Omni" for receiving MIDI messages, so the CW synth becomes mad receiving simultaneously all the pitchbends on all the MIDI channels. It's only a supposition I make, coz' I haven't already tried Microtune.

I had this kind of issue with Tune Smithy, when I tried it with only one CW synth instance; then I loaded several monophonic EZ Synth instance (16, one instance setted for each 16 MIDI channel) and I began to have some results. This becomes cumbersome but I'm not giving up, this is a fundamental topic.

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-01 18:42 ]

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:18 pm

On 2005-01-01 13:41, astroman wrote:
On 2005-01-01 07:47, Grok wrote:
... Be you a good or a bad musician, it's impossible to play something like Handel (this given just as an example)with the equal tempered scale... The very vast majority of the music is simply not playable with the equal tempered scale...
well, that kind of music isn't playable on an 'electronic' instrument anyway. Learn a real one and all scale problems are fixed (...)

Hi Tom,

Well I'd prefer that Creamware fixes this lack with a complete MIDI implementation in the CW synths, it could gives to synths composers like Wendy Carlos the idea to use the Scope Platform, wich could not happens right now because of this lack. The MIDI Tuning Extension is from 1999.

(...)Honestly, this is in no way related to sophistication or quality - it's just two different approaches to 'music'.(...)

I would say that it is more than two approaches (or three, or an infinite number of approaches) to 'music'. It's an approache to the very deep heart of Music and its perception by the human being...

(...)Of course anyone appreciates additional features, but imho there are more important things to fix than 'scales' that 80% of the users don't even know about and 99% will never use.(...)

How do you know that? What about musical freedom and artistry? Is SFP only for formated musics? This platform and its sonical qualities deserves better... VSTis are already on the run... This topic is simply a fundamental topic for the musical evolution in the XXIth century. We need the best of the technology, not solely a copy of the past intrumentals lacks that have lead to the current equal tempered scale predominance and its harmonic weaknesses and poverty...

(...)I assume that CWA isn't the main supplier for 'eastern' (viewed from my geographic position) traditional music gear... (...)

I personally hate microtuning because it blocks my TX802 in a certain way...

cheers, Tom

Please Tom don't reduce this topic to an artificial opposition between 'exotics traditionnals musics' and some kind of imaginary 'modern' music. This is plainly a topic concerning contemporary and future musics...

Regards,
Grok

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2005-01-01 18:32 ]

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:32 am

I tried OMNI at first with Microtuner because I thought I read in the PDF the VSTi's have to accept pitchbend messages on all channels ...
It work though on one channel BUT it seems to send unwanted note off messages just after I hit key ( I use the MIDI Monitor utility )

Is there potential interference with the pitchbend range setting that exists on many sytnhs ?

More VSTi's accept microtuning now but it took time and lobbying !

I remember Tobybear saying it was a simple thing to implement and he was willing to help developpers, CWA could ask him to implement a small standalone app that works outside DP.

Isn't it a good resolution to start with ?