Tactile control Apreciation/Opinions please.

[astroman]

not exactly on the topic and a bit early, but I just ordered an IPad for Scope remote control.
As the iphone did a pretty good job on this I'm quite optimistic with more screen estate.
WLan could run without protection as the rig wouldn't be connected to the internet anyway...
Supposed to arrive mid to end next week

cheers, Tom

[dante]

Agreed ...this debate could be redundant in a year courtesy Touchscreens & Wifi......depending on scale of economies and screen real estate...

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/ ... ontroller/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQO0CVsS5I

[winger]

I have been using the BCF2000 for a while now. Originally I was using a yamaha promix-01 as a controller but I have moved away from that to the behringer.

I was using the 2448 mixer but was unhappy with the inability to control verything via midi. 1 channel, 128 controllers and you run out pretty quick. So I created my own devices to mix with using the sdk.

I currently am using 3 bcf2000 and a bcr2000 all together. 2 of the bcr-2000 are used for channel 1-16/17-32. The third is used for masters control of the main mix and 7 auxes. The bcr2000 is used for eq and compresstion.

I used a combination of home brew scope devices and a c++ midi router switcher to acomplist the tasks.

With my current setup I am controlling 32 chaannels with 4 band eq, compression hp filter, 3 band master eq. I can control all channels, eq, compression, mute solo, select (which brings up the scope device surface and hides the previoius one). I can save and restore 8 snapshots and solo all channels and masters (in stereo) and can do it all without using the mouse or keyboard.

This for live sound. Have only used it once live so far but will be usiung it a lot the next few weeks (asumming I dont hit any 'show stopper' bugs). Pretty Cool so far.

I

[ChampionSound]

Wow, I still might have a chance to use my BCR after reading this topic...

The thing is, I own a BCR2000 for more than 4 years now, but I never found a proper way to set it up to use with the STM2448 or another Scope synth. In the meanwhile it's sitting in its box for a couple of years, really a waste. It would be nice to give it a new try reading these ideas and tips to control any scope mixer, preferably the STM 2448. I'll definately keep an eye on this topic. If I manage a way to make my BCR work full duplex with any scope device/module, I might consider a (2nd hand) BCF (or two) for more intuïtive control for my scope mixers. I'd be happy to control the faders, solo's and mutes at least.

I would like to do is to control a scope mixer, preferably full duplex, so both directions. Turning a knob on the BCR has to work in the STM, and moving the faders on the STM with the mouse should move the LED ring on the BCR.. but then I'm not sure what's best to do: control it directly from BCR/BCF through the midi to the STM mixer (connect physical midi cables in and out to my scope card), or route it via a USB cable to cubase and control the automation via a midi track in cubase...

I guess that the second option is normally the way to go, can anyone confirm?

My second question is,
what is a good way for indexing cc numbers for every fader/knob/button? Or doesn't it matter that much?
The way I'm doing it now is to give any fader/knob/button on the STM a cc number, Choose "learn" on the BCR/BCF for every function.
Once all the CC's have been assigned, I save the cc settings in a MIDI preset in the STM, and the corresponding preset in the BCR/BCF.
For every new scope project I have to load the same midi preset for the STM, and recall the same corresponding preset on the BCR/BCF.
For controlling the STM I have to make sure to select the MIDI lane in cubase (yes, cubase here) with the correct MIDI settings from and to scope.
Is this the way to do it, or am I missing something here? Sorry if it's a dumb question..

Thanks in advance.

[dante]

Champion, heres a screenshot of one of my BCR <==> STM projects. From this I get bi-directional control. STM mixer is on the left. The top row of BCR knobs control a input reconding/foldback mini-mixer.

STM-BCR

STM-to-BCR.JPG (18.7 KiB) Viewed 3753 times

1) Use MIDI I/O instead of USB - from memory you cant get USB MIDI into a Scope project ( without routing it through some intermediatry like MIDIOX, hubis etc which Scope can see ). Correct me if I'm wrong on this anyone....

2) It doesn't really matter about being aware of individual controller numbers. From memory I activated some standard layout on the BCR years ago and havn't changed it since ( which is why I cant remember which one it is..).
Because then all you do (once you've got the connections up) is right click each STM fader ( or control ) and theres a 'learn' box comes up. You click some icon or other and then you twist the BCR knob, the controller number will pop up in the box and its mapped to STM ! Repeat 24 times for each fader..... then map yer top row of knobs to whatever else you want...

Sounds similar to what you're doing except I dont bother maintaining 'presets' on the BCR or the STM. Once I have a working STM project I use it as a base for the next project.

Also, the way I've connected STM to MIDI is totally independant of Cubase. So it doesnt matter whether Im using Cubase or Reason / Record standalone or no sequencer at all..it just works.

[ChampionSound]

Dante,

Thanks a lot for your input, this will help me for sure!
The only challenge for me is that I have two project cards (and one booster card without I/O), and both their midi connectors (in AND out) are occupied, because there are more hardware synths that I've connected.
Tonight I'll check If I can free up a pair of MIDI in and out connectors to hook up the BCR.
Will report back...

cheers

[astroman]

I wouldn't bother too much about those controllers...
let me make a bold statement and say Sonic Core will do it on the iPad
sooner or later...
I already claim the rights to the term TSB aka Tactile Sound Boxes

cheers, Tom
(not out of his mind, but deeply impressed by the handling of a multi-tracker on his cellphone)
holy crap - and the best GUI approach I've seen for years

[dante]

Soniccore dont need to do it - per above post ... an app on iPad.
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/ ... ontroller/

Still rather have a BCR & a couple of BCF's for the price of an iPad...

[dante]

Dante,

Thanks a lot for your input, this will help me for sure!
The only challenge for me is that I have two project cards (and one booster card without I/O), and both their midi connectors (in AND out) are occupied, because there are more hardware synths that I've connected.
Tonight I'll check If I can free up a pair of MIDI in and out connectors to hook up the BCR.
Will report back...

cheers

You could get one MIDI merge box and one MIDI splitter box....I always have a coupla those spare they come in handy.

[astroman]

Soniccore dont need to do it - per above post ... an app on iPad.
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/ ... ontroller/

sorry, Dante - I wasn't really precise, but not all apps are created equal.
The synthopia thing is lame and it doesn't offer any advantage over a BCR/BCF.

Sonic Core could use the native resolution of Scope without any zipping and also improve the GUI part on the controller without ever touching the original device.
I've been just blown away by the handling of MultiTrack on that tiny phone surface. It is lightning fast and very(!) convenient.

For example to arm a track you don't need to hit the tiny red dot.
Just point near it's area and an enlarged version pops up, same for faders and the pan pot.
The magnified control gives you an enormous amount of detail and reacts precisely to the acceleration of your fingertips (possibly even better than a simple endless wheel).
After some inactivity the popup auto-closes (or you do it by pointing to the area again).

A friend builds custom controllers with industrial touch panels - those are not even remotely comparable to the reaction of the Apple surface. Not only are they are more expensive, but also require significant mounting time.
Then Apple throws in a highly sophisticated GUI lib...
I'm pretty sure Sonic Core will have a close look - I for one had, even as purely database oriented... we have some aquisition problems from complex documents that would really benefit from the smart handling.
This is no fanboys stuff, but a time-is-money decision. At 500 Euro you can hardly go wrong

cheers, Tom

[ChampionSound]

You could get one MIDI merge box and one MIDI splitter box....I always have a coupla those spare they come in handy.

Thanks, yes I figured I need one of those mergers and thru boxes (4 channel) for more midi controllers in the future. But that will cost me an additional 150 euros..
I'll put this on hold for a litte while longer, and keep this all in mind.

I don't see any sequencer source and destiny modules in your project screenshot a couple of post above. For automating and recording fader movements I assume that the sequencer source module has to go to a midi merger in the scope routing window as well, to merge midi source (BCR/BCF directly controlling STM mixer) and seq source (automate the mixer from seq) into the STM mixer, and the same goes for the midi out from the STM to a midi splitter in the routing window and splits the outgoing midi data to both the sequencer dest (recording fader movements, etc)and midi dest (visual feedback on the LED rings).

Is my way of thinking correct?
Thanks again in advance and sorry for hyjacking this thread

cheers

[dante]

Astroman : I agree regards the iPad touchscreen, responsiveness and competitive compared to others. The controller market is sort of half and half regards DAW software vendors making thier own ( like Steinberg ). Many others just rely on generic MIDI controllers - with templates supplied either by the DAW software maker or not. Remains to be seen whether iPad would change this ratio...Sonnicore's focus is DSP - hope it stays that way cuz they're so damn freakin good at it. I tried Optimaster for the first time last night and it blew me away.....

Imagine the vibe on this forum if we ever heard Scope 5.x was delayed cuz developers tied up playing with iPad API's......

ChampionSound : I dont automate my mixes - in fact I dont use the BCR too much - mainly because I dont have a template printed up for it showing what each knob controls - due to the laziness of the knob that bought it . I just use non-destructive level editing on a track by track basis. So an automation scenario probably would involve Seq source & dest. If I was to do that I'd probably ( as you suggest ) experiment with SCOPE MIDI merge / splitter in Scope project, so that the BCR could control the mix directly (as well as the sequencer track when I wanted it to) without having to select the automation track in sequencer.

So yes, MIDI merge/splitters outside and/or inside the box would probably give you the max possibilities....
Heres a merger for $79US http://www.midisolutions.com/prodmrg.htm
And a thru for $49US http://www.midisolutions.com/prodthr.htm
So thats only $100 Euro to do what you want....and Im sure you could get 'em cheaper if you hunt round music shops and break thier balls a bit...

Myself, I have plenty of MIDI I/O having 1 Pulsar and 2 x Luna... but I was also one of the suckers that bought the ill fated MIDEX....

[astroman]

... Imagine the vibe on this forum if we ever heard Scope 5.x was delayed cuz developers tied up playing with iPad API's...

don't worry, that stuff can easily be outsourced because you only need to provide the interface to a general datastructure. No internal details of DSP operation required.
That's also an aspect for myself as I do stuff on a (backend) database system that doesn't run native in the Mac environment, but all our production machines are Macs...

My point is NOT that you got to have it right now because it's the latest and greatest buzz, but that it seems to be a smart alternative to extend the Scope user interface without having to rewrite large parts of the graphic environment.

Btw I also downloaded Rebirth, which simply sticks with it's original interface.
Still you can operate the dials in a surprisingly musical way on an iPhone.
Took me a moment to realize that you move the surface (once zoomed in) by 2-finger drags, while a single finger operates the controls.
Anyone who ever used a 'regular' touchscreen with Scope knows about the accidental shifting of devices when you slightly miss the 'hot spots' (something that drives me nuts, so I never used my 15" touchscreen for Scope).

cheers, Tom

[dante]

Yeah that holding of the shift key to zoom / pan iPhone Rebirth really pissed me off - to a point where I decided to give it a miss. But that 2 finger pan is a good trick - thanks for the tip Astro...!!!

Would work much better on an iPad though....

[dehuszar]

I've also been exploring using multi-touch screens as controllers, but the iPad is useless to me outside of that context. I'm waiting to see what the competition comes up with come the holiday season. In the meantime, I've got my sights on this ridiculous piece of overkill.

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm ... 32279.html

Nope. Not kidding.

Sam

[winger]

Just a note of potential problems with the midi merging. In my work to create a live mixing system using a control surface I found that when I would load the project, it would send all the midi control information to the surface which is what I was looking for. However, when I got multiple devices, with the devices outputs going through mergers to the midi out, I would loose much of the midi controller data I needed to sync the surface to my project. I had several hundred controls, but when the project would load I would never get more than about 195 controllers. I was not able to prove it but concluded that all the devices would send data at the same time and overrun the buffers in the mergers so data would get lost. Then I had not way to get the devices to resend their controller data. Sonic Core did confirm to me that this is how it worked, but did not confirm my midi buffer overrun concludes.

Here was the response I got when I asked how to solve the problem:

"The MIDI implementation is something we want to improve in the future.
But therefor we need to change the whole controller handling.

For the moment I have no idea how we can help you."

This may not be a problem for you, but I had to completely rethink my approach to work around this limitation.

[dante]

Its not too hard to saturate MIDI especially at that original 31k baud or whatever rate that the serial interface works at. MIDI over USB probably doesnt have that issue but most midi gear have the old slow 5 pin din

[astroman]

yes, I still remember a Kawai fader controller (for K4 realtime operation) that jammed the synth within seconds when a couple of fader were moved simultanously. To be precise it was the K4 that couldn't handle the flood of data...

cheers, Tom

[astroman]

well, I've just spent 20 bucks on a red Korg Electribe...
here it is in action, but not by me.
it actually shows that the multitouch surface is very responsive.
you can control several dials or even grab an element with automation attached to it and move it against it's direction.

cheers, Tom

[Neutron]

I've also been exploring using multi-touch screens as controllers, but the iPad is useless to me outside of that context. I'm waiting to see what the competition comes up with come the holiday season. In the meantime, I've got my sights on this ridiculous piece of overkill.

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm ... 32279.html

Nope. Not kidding.

Sam

that is ridiculously cool i wonder how hard it would be to build a giant "lemur" like multitouch app for it (and it costs the same as a lemur anyways) maybe max/MSP or something like that already supports multitouch?

how does windows support multitouch? can you just move multiple things like you would with a mouse? then you could just directly control your scope mixers.

I almost want to build a coffee table with one of those:)