Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

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valis
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Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by valis »

Over the years we've had many discussions about Creamware & SonicCore's products and business model. For a community & product that spans over 20 years, this is hardly surprising. However I think the apathy I sometimes percieve towards our tools and their ownership is perhaps somewhat misplaced.

The main thing with S|C is that their business is niche, not even the owner makes his living full-time with Scope and our community. I'm sure we can all relate to what it's like to have multiple commitments you try to maintain in an adult working life. For many or even most people, this often means simplifying things to be more manageable, and dropping what doesn't given the most efficient path to financial returns.

I don't of course know anything about S|C's financial structure or business, aside from what any of us can observe here. But given the number of years I've been here, I would still like to share some observations with you:
  • Keep in mind that S|C still pays other staff members a salary and continues to manufacture Xite hardware, but the pace of development can be limited by people's bandwidth due to many concerns.
  • While I would agree that as customers we certainly have immediate support needs and rights under the law, as long-term users perhaps we can be thankful that S|C has chosen to continue to be a commitment for the people who bring it to us, even though they might also need to focus on other concerns in parallel to earn a living.
  • Thinking of S|C as a company in the correct and current context might help many when understanding this product and how and when to use it.
Now it's on this last point I'll expound a bit more:

I think the expectation often expressed by some over the years that S|C be equated to other commercial companies that make hardware audio products or DSP solutions belies the fact that starting in the middle of the 00's most of these companies had to come under other ownership(s) to continue to survive on that sort of business model. Think of how well this worked out for M-Audio for instance, or Emu/Ensoniq, or many wonderful hardware & software offerings in the past that were purchased and then abandoned (thinking of a specific guitar company here...)

In any case, Once S|C emerged from the ashes of Creamware, the landscape for audio was much different than when Creamware started in the late 90's. In less than a decade we went from machines that clearly needed the assistance of DSP platforms to even begin to approach workflows needed for professional users to laptops that students could use to produce somewhat comparable results (In terms of computing oomph) in a very short time period. And from then to now we have mobile phones that vastly exceed the power of the first machines that many of us put our Scope cards in.

Point being that it's clear the software ecosystem alone evolved to where DSP solutions were no longer a necessity, something braincell once was prone to pointing out (perhaps excessively). And I recall many of us at the time expressing that we thought Scope might always have a utility for those who don't just want to stick their head into the computer (or ipad etc). And it's on the last point I think Scope still has, and always has had its niche:

I think it's much better perhaps to think of this product and the community around it as something more akin to boutique hardware, than as something that should be compared to companies that have a broad product offering and larger corporate structure.


Given the number of people who are moving away from computers entirely in electronic music workflows, and who would probably accept using Scope much in the manner that Jimmy and others here have used it (as outboard & host PC alike), I think this niche will continue to exist.

Of course I would love to see further success and even more growth for Holger & Gary etc, but the idea that this is abandoned or somehow not marketable because it isn't in line with companies that drove themselves into the arms of investment bankers and tiered ownership & financial management structures seems bizarre to me. Look at the thriving ecosystem around ARM based devices now, tabletop boutique makers and the eurorack community (love or hate some of the budget oriented nature of that)...and think of Scope as being firmly relevant within a similar niche..though still tethered to a host PC so perhaps more akin to something like the TC 6000, a fairlight or etc. A device that has great strengths & uses for those who appreciate what it does, while not catering to the prosumer masses as many of the more commercial comparisons do.

Thoughts?
nebelfuerst
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by nebelfuerst »

It's hard to explain, what makes scope unique these days, at first glance.
As most of us, I own a couple of DAWs and interface cards, which should be a able to replace scope.
There is enough CPU power available today, so it's hard to overload a PC by DAW.

So why did I buy more and more S|C stuff then ?

a)I love my old projects and I enjoy loading them after years to furher develop them.
I use my ADAT source, just as I did 15 years ago. No need to mess new drivers with WIN XP,7,10
All devices still work. Some DAW/VST/IO-card setups broke compatibility more then once.

b) The licence locked to a device is not ideal, but better compared to licence servers in the internet. I own several gadgets which became useless over night, as the "cloud" dissappeared. (e.g. Palm Pre)

c) Excellent stability and flexibility is more more reason why I use scope. I just works, it solves my problems easily. Some DAW regulary crash on their own or by buggy VSTs.

d) Last not least: The sound is great and professional. While some DAW-effects and VSTs sound "noisy and cheap", scope was never the reason for unprofessional results.

e) As a geek, the availability of the SDK is one more argument, although my skills are still limited.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by garyb »

i had a good friend/client ask "why do i need a great mic and pre? aren't the $100 mics good enough? i can't really tell the difference."
then he worked at his craft a bit more and said "oh! i see what the difference is now!"

if ya don't know, ya don't know. everyone is free to parade their ignorance to the world these days, however...
everyone is a super-star producer.
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dante
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by dante »

I think if a future release of Scope for XITE could claw back just some of the functionality lost since the PCI x32 days then the mainstream vs Boutique distinction would be much less of a thing.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by fra77x2 »

For me the Xite-1 is perfect. I use the SDK. I also use my old PCI cards in a separate machine (21 dsps) (for lab purposes, analogue, experimenting etc). I never encounter problems with what I use. My Xite-1 works 24/7 without complain. For new users I suppose getting the Xite and the sdk (but use it for audio/production not for developing devices) is still a good deal . The sdk modular environment is unique, and the DSP's allow the DAW to run with very few resources. (Reaper runs with 5% CPU usage here and is very fast responsive etc). Personally I do not care for updates, fixes, everything works as opposed.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by Spielraum »

and the marmot greets you every year ...
ok, and here my word to sunday [june, 2021]

DSP WILL NEVER DIE!
Last edited by Spielraum on Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅] Lange Welle ~ Mittelwelle ~ Kurze Welle ~ Ultra Kurze Welle
Scope Sandbox soundcloud ~ youtube ~ bc modular-guide° ~ modules-SR
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valis
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by valis »

I was comparing Scope to any boutique maker within that community, you seem to be wishing for Scope to be something it is not. That's two different things. Having traced the evolution of Scope from Realtime Csound (which I was very interested in in 1996) to the current DSP platform, it's still a unique product for the end users.

I understand that it has been difficult for you in some ways, but the amount of screenshots you've created dwarf by far the posts you've used to give us the product of your labors. It seems to me that somewhere in there is still a lot of productivity, and the ability to share that with us in ways that would benefit you still likely exist. We do have a few other devs here, and while the financial return is small it isn't nonexistent. The changes you might wish for the platform are another thing, but there's still a lot that can be accomplished with the tools as they are imho.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by snoopy4ever »

Hello Valis!!

let me tell you , and this is not to "withdraw" any term yuu have exposed here, but WAY back in 1996 , I was in Atlanta GA, trying to get hardware for my home studio project, and yes.. I started to ask for the Creamware Cards , and a very nice guy at Guitar Center ( if I do recall properly ) told me " ohh .. yes... no man, sorry those cards are really too much 'boutique' kind of thing " .. hahaha ... and yes I got back with a mackie and a tascam desk, However I think , I can't really explain how amazing those cards, and the whole routing/recording/synths thing of SC system meant for me.. since those years when I got my first pulsar card. Just last week I've got a RME raydat card to use with my old computer which has been relegated to be the DSP's house FOREVER , cause I had to upgrade my audio computer to cope with latest software requirements.. but for me the 36 dsp's I have are winners from start to finish ... Belevie me If I were Elon Musk or a billionaire or any kind of investor, I would love to inject a lot of money on SC to keep up with new pci-e cards and A/D D/A converters for the next years to come. I do strongly beleive the "boutique" concept for these cards is because not so much people have the chance to use them and enjoy them as most of us have done. I love them can't say otherwise.
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valis
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by valis »

I'm all for S|C getting a cool half mill (or more) injection of capital! Or at least enough to resolve some of these outstanding issues and perhaps enough to put 1-2 dsp's into a much smaller mobile format so that they can make a 'garageband' or even a 'hammerhead studio' version of scope that any old guitar center peruser can enjoy.

As someone who just stewards a niche audio forum, it's not really my role to sway S|C and the financial powers that be into pushing our products into obscurity or the limelight. What I have done however is try to give a practical and useful perspective to any current user who might visit the forums, so that future braincells trained upon the idea that without MPE & Midi 2.0 scope is 'dead in the water to users' and so on.

Now what might be read into your statement is that there was a missed opportunity in marketing with chain/outlet stores selling products like Scope, and to that end hey we have our modern digital counterparts and online marketing. So I do hope that future products like Scope take heed of what's available to them. While I know the internet existed longer than Scope has there wasn't much occasion for people in that era to even understand what it was without a magazine article or informed store rep. That is at least until they understood the lay of the land in terms of products for it to stick out over the normal commercial offerings when they see it.

Thanks for the response, glad you enjoy your cards!
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by dawman »

I’ll just keep using the best live performance Audio/MIDI interface until the Cows come home.
Nothing else can touch it.

It’s great we can all have different uses unheard of in the world of audio.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by Bud Weiser »

I´ll keep using my XITE-1 and the PCI cards as long as these work and/or can be repaired in case of failure.
Even using XITE-1 since about a decade now, I expanded my single Power Pulsar PCI card system w/ 2 more Pulsar - 2 and still have a card in spare in addition.
I really enjoy the XITE´s sound, low latency, stability and last but not least, build quality.
It´s just only an excellent piece of gear worth to survive.
No intention to sell it at all.

I rarely replace gear quick.
When I´d really want something "latest-greatest", I´d buy and use all side by side in harmony for the best it does.

:)

Bud
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by bassundgitarre »

Hello,

I've only owned a Xite-1 since the beginning of the year. Before that I had an Expansion Box from Sys Ex with 23 DSPs. I still have it and am considering using it on my laptop. I am 100% satisfied with the device despite the limitations of the Xite in terms of the Vdats or the sampler.

I recently played a great gig with my trio, guitar and percussion vocals. It was the first time I used the Soniccore device live as well. With a BCR 2000 as remote control and a Behringer ADA 8200 and 2x Maui 28 G2 and a Lenovo W700 laptop.

The drummer said it was pretty complicated. He would have loved to bring his system with him. Well, I would be surprised how quickly I set everything up and only had 15 minutes to set the sound. After the performance, he just said that the system sounds great. I was also very impressed, although I didn't even have the time to put good plugins into the master. It sounded so good that I thought, wow, there is still room for improvement.

The Xite is really very strong. You can use it live and at home. The many plugins are really great. Who has such opportunities as a trio? Usually there is a mixer on the stage and I remember the times when you met at 3 p.m. set up the system and you didn't start until 8 p.m. The times are over.
Of course, the PC equipment has also gotten better and better. Nevertheless, I chose Xite because I simply love the quality and flexibility of the system. And all without latency. Connect, set up, start playing. And even the laptop has become a killer machine. I really want to create a setup for live applications that many can only dream of.

I heard a band live today that made me think how bad the reverb is. The finest bathtub with a kind of hard stone. Sorry, even Soniccore's worst reverb can do better. That was just what I heard. And finally, the people who made the sound certainly deserved something. The Xite is worth gold, we just forgot to estimate the value. I think it's a shame that hardly anyone in my circle of musicians knows Soniccore,. What I still have to learn, however, is which plug-in do I need for what? The DNA channel racks also played a major role in ensuring that the signals came across cleanly and, above all, clearly and distinctly, without having to tinker with it a lot. I still know the times when you tinkered with the instruments for 1 - 1.5 hours until it sounded good.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by Liquid EDGE »

I like that not every “Tom, Dick & Harry” understands or appreciates scope.
Let them all “sound” the same, and we can continue to have a unique touch..

Plus, it’s the perfect, almost seamless bridge between the hardware and software worlds!

And I like that there is very little updates (unnecessary money grabbing updates).... generally speaking, scope stuff is made, it does what it’s supposed to do.. no need for updates..

Making obsolescence obsolete!! 😀

Ps. I’m sure I remember reading somewhere that S|C want their products out of reach of the “general public” type buyer due to all the headache inducing and petulant demands and expectations of such a customer! 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by dawman »

Well said.
ZebraHZ, a rather fine soft synth just never satisfies the whiners crying for updates, whining if there’s a price, whining for more features and they still haven’t mastered the GUI.

I feel sorry for Urs of u-He.
He tries to fend off the whiners at KVR but they continue to cry about Zebra 3 costing money, when it does finally come.

S|C guys never have to go through that because they did a great job instead of dumping a BETA on us.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by Warp69 »

I started using Scope DP many years ago - it was a dream come true back then and in a few cases still are. It was an exceptional combination of software and hardware - they had to invent multiple solutions never seen before both in software and hardware and it stills impresses me what they actual accomplished back then in software (I'm biases because I'm a software guy).

Unfortunately there were missed opportunities and other stuff, but I'm still not convinced it's too late to make the idea and technologies behind Scope successful in today's market. I admit that things should change considerably before that can happen, but I'm optimistic :)

I have 3 Sonic Core Xites and countless Creamware cards, but they don't get used as much as I wanted to since I have moved to other dev platforms - I still use them for occasional prototyping.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by dante »

Warp69 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:25 am but I'm still not convinced it's too late to make the idea and technologies behind Scope successful in today's market.
Do you think that could happen on the current SC h/w platform, or would we need to see an XITE-2 ? eg with updated, faster DSP chips (at least on par or better than ADSP 21469 ?)
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by valis »

John mentioned there's already a faster dsp out that he was considering for Solaris, but I picked that up in passing in conversation and will admit that I haven't gone to look and see what newer devices are compatible with our existing Xite chips. It wouldn't surprise me if there's gains to be had given the time that has passed.

Personally, it will take me enough time to earn the money for an Xite that I hope for BNC sync to be solved. That would be my only usage concern with the platform as it stands now.

I also think there's a big market for a device that's closer to the Mod Duo-X, but still reliant on a host computer. Something external akin to a 'scope home' or luna version of the Xite would certainly be much more appealing if it had more oomph per DSP (since it will have less of them). I know many people that would use such a thing live as a smaller sibling akin to what Jimmy is doing. A simple bus mixer with a nice workflow and a master chain that includes a limiter (or optimaster etc) is needed by anyone that is doing more than mixing in Traktor & Serato, and many would play with such a thing in the studio I'm sure. However the caveat is that we then introduce many new users that loop us back into the cycle of casual/novice users who are an appealing attach point for marketing & profitability, but a pain in the butt in terms of chasing marketshare (the ephemeral consumer attention span) and support headaches.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by Warp69 »

dante wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:04 pm Do you think that could happen on the current SC h/w platform, or would we need to see an XITE-2 ? eg with updated, faster DSP chips (at least on par or better than ADSP 21469 ?)
Personally I think the XITE-1 is more than capable from a technical/performance point of view, but it's probably not from a marketing point of view. You might need to update the I/O's, but the reason why I have 3 is not because of performance.
In today's market, it's not enough to have a great product - you have to execute perfectly (business wise) to be successful, but a great product makes it so much easier compared to a bad product. Right now, I believe that a great product will keep customers and make them buy more, but a great product will not be able to get new customers at all - that's is purely up to management (marketing, make the right business decisions etc.). Scope in general has some unique selling points which marketing always loves :)
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dante
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by dante »

valis wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:21 pm Something external akin to a 'scope home' or luna version of the Xite would certainly be much more appealing if it had more oomph per DSP (since it will have less of them).
Yes, e.g. an XITE2-D with the 6 old DSP plus updated 4 latter gen DSP. Do you think your XITE will be XITE-1 or XITE-1D ?
Warp69 wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:16 am Personally I think the XITE-1 is more than capable from a technical/performance point of view
I agree - the XITE-1 is. But an XITED-2 with updated DSP would make a huge difference for entry level, especially on synth poly @ 96Khz (the speed at which John runs his DSP at on Solaris).
valis wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:21 pm John mentioned there's already a faster dsp out that he was considering for Solaris
Yes - e.g. the ADSP 21469 which is on much UAD gear. Here's something I found which is already a few years old :
Sharc-Race
Sharc-Race
sharc-race.jpg (96.11 KiB) Viewed 2328 times
e.g. an XITE-2 running the ADSP21569 would more than double the power.
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Re: Scope DSP/Xite in the modern market

Post by Bud Weiser »

dante wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:16 pm

Yes - e.g. the ADSP 21469 which is on much UAD gear. Here's something I found which is already a few years old :

sharc-race.jpg

e.g. an XITE-2 running the ADSP21569 would more than double the power.
in theory ...

at least, XITE-1 runs rarely out of DSP power.
depending on project, it rather runs out of SAT connections way before you reach DSP limit.

So, all depends on how the ADSP21569 behave,- also in theory,- in that department, how imaginary updated Scope deals w/ that behaviour and what design/construction of the imaginary XITE-2 allows.

Polyphony:
JB Solaris, after all the years and w/ newer SHARC chips running @96KHz, is NOT king of polyphony.
10 voices fixed is not much for a modern synth in that price range and latest quasi MIDI multi mode w/ it´s "Solaris" limitations is also only a drop in the bucket and vs other machines.
Doesn´t mean it´s a mediocre synth, but I can imagine SHARC DSPs, producing excellent sonic results, have other limitations then.

Why are UAD devices FX mostly and their synth(s) run native ?

In digital world, it seems to be a balancing act between demands and available ressources.
Efficiency of code is extremely important.
And we all know, w/ SCOPE v7, we have not yet reached the pinnacle in that department.
That´s why we wait for v7.1,- isn´t it ?

And w/ the lack of manpower, I cannot imagine S|C will come up w/ new hardware soon,- except upgrading interface connectivity using the up to now unsued XTDM connector for whatelse ... Thunderbolt 4, Dante ... perhaps.

:)

Bud
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