My completed Oberheim SEM project

[yayajohn]

I like this one: https://cherryaudio.com/instruments/eight-voice

t_tangent: Really nice job on that unit. You put a lot of pride and care into that one. Definitely an heirloom piece.
I've always preferred the hardware over the software. Even though they appear to sound the same in some instances, the difference is subtle.
I relate it to standing on the edge overlooking a grand scenery and then taking a picture of it with a high quality camera. When you get home and look at it does it give you the same feeling?
I think that some people get so wrapped up in the technical details of making music that they forget why they were drawn to it in first place.
IMHO, It's what inspires you and how an instrument makes you feel that's most important.

[t_tangent]

Hi John, thanks for the kind words, and yes it's very satisfying when it turns out nicely.
I like your analogy of seeing a photo compared to visiting the actual place, yes I guess it's quite similar.
And having the real thing as opposed to an emulation is nice although it's not always possible. For example the Cherry Audio eight-voice is a lot easier to fit in the studio , and once in a mix it's subtle difference in sound may not even be that noticeable. Will definitely look at that so thanks for the info.

Cheers mate.

[Bud Weiser]

I like this one: https://cherryaudio.com/instruments/eight-voice

I love it.
IMO it´s better sounding than Arturia´s SEM which cann be used polyphonic too and offers advanced setting to mimik several modules.

I´m actually waiting for their Memorymoog plugin and hope it´l be good too.



Bud

[astroman]

...For example the Cherry Audio eight-voice is a lot easier to fit in the studio , and once in a mix it's subtle difference in sound may not even be that noticeable...

imho the difference will NOT be that subtle
Their demo sounds are well designed and of course it‘s legitimate to apply reverb when it‘s an integral part of the plugin.
But I‘d pick the iMS20 on a simple iPad Air anytime over the Cherry version (it was the only one I could compare)
It‘s the usual graphic cheat: looks identical, supposed to sound identical.

[dante]

I was wondering about the Cherry Audio - why is it so cheap ? Think Ill check out the Arturia instead. Its more expensive so should sound better - right ? Or am I just too lazy to conduct a shootout....

[astroman]

It‘s not that cheap - imho it‘s a single modular engine with 4 different GUI variants.
$29 is in the range of „better“ IOS apps, additionally tempting by an almost 50% off suggested retail prices.
At least I didn‘t find any raw oscillator/filter sounds in their demos and it‘s common knowledge that just a dash of properly applied reverb may have (or usually has) a tremendous effect on synth output.

The Cherries aren‘t bad at all, but clearly below high quality VSTs, or Scope, or top IOS apps, let alone a piece of real hardware like t_tangent‘s Oberheim.
It would be interesting if he recreates a patch from his module on a single voice of a Cherry device demo... but that‘s just a rhethoric suggestion

[valis]

I don't find Cherry Audio sub-par in terms of audio quality. Although I do not have the original to compare it to either, but compared to the other native implementations it doesn't sound sub-par. I will admit I have it on desktop rather than iOS, as the main appeal of investing in Cherry's stuff is that it can be integrated into their Cherry Modular setup (and they give away enough of the core stuff to have plenty of toys on the cheap). I happen to also have other Cherry Mod packs including the PSP stuff, so the tonal palette on hand here is quite broad.

And I also recall when Arturia sounded very 'samey' to me and had an exorbitant (for the time) CPU load for what wound up being the same set of waveforms across all of their devices. I think they've come quite far since then of course (as have CPU's), but there's a lot of lower tier devs in terms of pricing and market presence that I don't think are always lesser in terms of quality or results. Off the top of my head I could place them with Audio Damage, Hornet Plugins, Audio Thing, Goodhertz, Klevgrand, Toneboosters, United Plugins, Valhalla DSP as affordable options worthy of using for many aspiring talents out there. Not to mention that there are also freebies that are great like Vember Surge, VCV Rack, the stuff from Full Bucket Music alongside many others I'm sure you could mention.

[garyb]

if the main requirement for great music is lots of toys to play with, why does present day music suck so bad? isn't equality the key to quality? hmmm...

[valis]

At this point I'm largely entertaining myself. Post-Covid, we'll see...

[Bud Weiser]

I don't find Cherry Audio sub-par in terms of audio quality. Although I do not have the original to compare it to either, but compared to the other native implementations it doesn't sound sub-par.

I can only agree !
IMO, they sound as good as any other commercial, quality Oberheim emulations out there.
8-Voice has grid and sounds different from p.ex. Sonic Projects OP-X Pro II, the Arturia SEM and Arturia´s OBX-a.
It has to sound different from the other emulating different Oberheim synths, except Arturia SEM.
BUT, the Arturia SEM was intentionally a single SEM and then they added some parameters for "randomness" when it played polyphonic.

I owned a OB-8, 3 Matrix-1000 and still own a Xpander,- and when I was younger and couldn´t afford any, I was in that music shop importing the holy grails of 70s gear almost all day and sat in front of the Oberheim 2-Voice and turned knobs.

The price is not was makes a piece of gear sound good, especially not in software.
The "Memorymoon" ME80 and Messiah sound great since these are been re-coded in C++,- and are still cheap too.
http://www.memorymoon.com/index.html

And, take 3 of the same Oberheim synths and they will sound different too.
Rules also for analogue ARP, Moog & Roland synths.

And I also recall when Arturia sounded very 'samey' to me and had an exorbitant (for the time) CPU load for what wound up being the same set of waveforms across all of their devices.

There were times it was so bad I didn´t buy any !
The Arturia Matrix-12,- I´m able to compare w/ the Xpander because their architecture is identical,- except dual voiceboard, detune- and dedicated modulation settings pages,- is still far from the hardware original.

I think they've come quite far since then of course (as have CPU's),..

It got better for sure,- the Arturia OBX-a sounds good,- but also does the freeware discoDSP OBX-d (which is $49 for commercial use) !

... the stuff from Full Bucket Music alongside many others I'm sure you could mention.

Ha, great you mention these !
I like the FBM devices very much.
I just installed their latest creations,- "WhispAir" and "GrainStrain" ...

https://www.fullbucket.de/music/whispair.html

https://www.fullbucket.de/music/grainstrain.html

The nice side of virtual gear is affordability and the occasion to check out so much stuff w/ ease.
Most we don´t need and at least we all have overkill gear in software since decades,- MORE than enough for every music production concentrating on work "in the box".

But you know what ?
I always prefered working together w/ other creative musicians, playing instruments vs. sitting alone in front of the screens w/ the DAW and plugins in the humble home studio.

The result is different music,- you hear the interaction of musicians ...
the drums alone ... loops and patterns vs. a real and hopefully virtous player w/ a good technique.
But that were the times we hired a specialized studio and recording engineer,- and I think that were good times !



Bud

[Bud Weiser]

if the main requirement for great music is lots of toys to play with, why does present day music suck so bad? isn't equality the key to quality? hmmm...

When idea, composition, arrangement and planning of a production are bad,- this has to be compensated w/ SOUND.
When the singer looks good, is possibly already well known from TV or whatelse,- but cannot sing,- it has to be compensated w/ computer technology.
What they did BEFORE production in the past,- selecting the right musicians, the right singer, the right studio and carefully calculating budget,- they do today in "post production".
Post production became more important than production and performance quality.

Alone the stupidity of EDM drums is underworld for my ears, I cannot stand it for more that e few minutes and then it also doesn´t matter which "great" sidelines and envolving pads are in the ballpark,- at least for me.

In fact it depends where you come from.
I´m (relatively) old.
I like good rock- and blues-bands as well as 70s fusion, even pure jazz like Miles in the 60s,- simply the stuff where great players mastered their acoustic, electromagnetic and,- at 1st still rarely electronic,- instruments, wrote good themes and found interesting chord progressions, re-harmonized and such.
I remember how good Herbie´s early Mandwishi stuff wass and still is, with the real musicians, brass section,- and the genious Patrick Gleeson introducing the ARP2600 givin´the stuff some spice.
I also love Depp Purple for their timing and precision or Walter Trout´s virtuoso blues guitar playing.
Just only a few examples ...

It´s still existing and there are young musicians doing that, but main focus of the past decades was simplify beat, chord progressions, melody and even lyrics, make it interchangable for the radio and tv formats.
You know, when most pro composers/producers use Apple Logic and it´s content because it´s the easiest,- it all sounds the same because they all use the same presets.
That´s also the case w/ these VSTI collections, NI Komplete Ultimate, Omnispere etc. included.
Many 1000s of presets for the quick usage,- and all use,- and buy and buy more and more content.
It´s the softwaremanufacturer´s wet dream #2,- selling libraries all the time and #1 is subscription to their cloud.

Today´s music is a "track", not a tune.
A track is what we called a "playback" which was considered not to be finished.
In the past nobody produced tracks and beats and sold that as also nobody used "what other´s played" as samples so much.

Sampling changed that and I´ve seen it coming ...
Today those who can play make sample libraries and the "producers" buy their creativity in form of styles/MIDIfiles and samples of all kind!

The old electronica scene might have been the exception,- but what we got from Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze and some others in the past was still better than what we hear in large quantity today.
And I think it was because they had to deal w/ the same limitations the others, creating different genres, had to deal w/ too,-
tape MTR machines, analog consoles, analog outboard, room acoustics, lots of cables, unreliable synths, hum, hiss, rudimentary tape editing.
Post Production and correction, autotune ... WHAT ???

well ...



Bud

[valis]

Well, it is a good distinction. Music played by musicians as a realtime experience, versus what I do which is essentially glorified sound design presented in a DJ format (even though I also add visuals now).

in any case, noone is going to fault anyone here for using MIDI files, that and sampling aren't what led to the downfall of modern music. For answers to that, look to the distribution channels, the funding sources and the general public at large. I'm thankful that I can happily live within a few niches of interest for as long as I care to, and find plenty of enjoyment therein. If others come along for the ride...well I do hope they're enjoying it for otherwise why are they staying?

In much the same way, building a hardware piece (returning to the topic at hand) to sit alongside our other tools should be something that is not only rewarding personally but gives sonic results to the liking of the builder. And herein lies the parallel to my paragraph above...if others choose to come along for the ride...

[dante]

Good music knows no barriers - technological or others. From didgeridoos and fiddlesticks to gear laden DSP studios with isolation booths and Steinways. You can go to any genre and pick heroes from Debussy (who still gets plays in Oceans 11 movies) to Armin Van Buren's EDM. If you can be creative with a nylon string guitar and a tabla you can be creative with an iPad and a pedal looper - or a monophonic SEM.

Break down the walls.

[Bud Weiser]

Well, it is a good distinction. Music played by musicians as a realtime experience, versus what I do which is essentially glorified sound design presented in a DJ format (even though I also add visuals now).

Nothing against sound design and doin´ multi-media shows.

in any case, noone is going to fault anyone here for using MIDI files, ...

Well,- 2 edged sword,- no ?
When I learned what a MIDI file is, that were the times using one of the early computers and MIDI interface (Commodore) or ATARI (MIDI interface built in), composed, arranged .. and when I saved the result was a MIDI file,- MY MIDI file,- because I wrote what at the end of the day was been used for the recording.

I never bought phrases, grooves, riff patterns, basslines and complete vocal parts w/ lyrics to "compose" (a track).
Doing that and arrange ´em on a timeline is not a composition,- it´s a collage and the level of originality is by far not the same.
Every lawyer being familiar w/ copyright protection will tell.

... that and sampling aren't what led to the downfall of modern music.

digitizing the analog signal by converting it into a binary code and providing easy storage made manipulation, plagiarism and theft of intellectual property MUCH easier,- and sampling was the beginning.
It was the technology opening the doors, especially when it became affordable for everyone,- p.ex. w/ the Ensoniq Mirage.
It became more interesting when p.ex. AKAI S-1100 came w/ more memory, SMPTE, AES/EBU out and longer stereo recording times, advanced trim features, allowed rearranging the snippets on the timeline while being synced to tape, flying all in in realtime and in a different sequential order.

That doesn´t mean everyone using samples (or sampling) is a stealer.

But everyone is free to use technology in different ways,- like you can use nuclear energy as a weapon of mass destruction or civil use.
I´d call that user responsibility.

For answers to that, look to the distribution channels, the funding sources and the general public at large.

Well,- he who pays the piper calls the tune.

The attitude of the general public is, music has to be available for free.
And distribution channels like Youtube are indeed stealers because they pay only cents.
Who makes money w/ pure music there,- no one does.
The money is made w/ clicks because clicks mean commercial.
You can gain clicks w/ almost everything sensational or annoying,- it doesn´t matter if it´s music.
The money comes from advertisement.
And,- you can buy clicks like the MIDI files, styles, phrases and samples for real money.
I know producers and online record companies buying clicks.

Today´s music biz is totally degenerated, but only old cats know while the general public accepts as normal.

Then there are the streaming services,- a little better,- but also not comparable w/ selling records (vinyl, compact cassette and CD) like in the past.
But,- already the compact cassette made the so called "private copy", which became a questionable term anyway, possible.

I'm thankful that I can happily live within a few niches of interest for as long as I care to, and find plenty of enjoyment therein. If others come along for the ride...well I do hope they're enjoying it for otherwise why are they staying?

In much the same way, building a hardware piece (returning to the topic at hand) to sit alongside our other tools should be something that is not only rewarding personally but gives sonic results to the liking of the builder. And herein lies the parallel to my paragraph above...if others choose to come along for the ride...

What I typed in former and this post was and is not meant as a personal offense,- it is just only my opinion,- last but not least because others and I myself suffer(ed) from big income loss since "times changed".

I´ll stop here because it becomes too much O.T..



Bud

[valis]

Please don't take any responses as retaliatory or having taken offense, There is btw a distinction between commercial success, personal success and recognized success among your peers. What percentage is given what weight is up to the beholder to determine imho...

I find overall I'm relatively happy in my workspace, so if I can earn enough income to stay here versus 'getting a job' I'm already ahead of the game. If I can get some return on the creative output that leads to more creative output...well that's a measure of success imho.

Keeping in mind of course that we're drifting in and out of the parent topic's scope and so the main aim of my prior posting was to continue to draw points that might land back on track.

[garyb]

you cannot compensate for bad ideas, composition, arrangement or planning with sound quality.
well polished crap is still crap.

[Bud Weiser]

I find overall I'm relatively happy in my workspace, so if I can earn enough income to stay here versus 'getting a job' I'm already ahead of the game. If I can get some return on the creative output that leads to more creative output...well that's a measure of success imho.

That´s great, congrats !



Bud

[Bud Weiser]

you cannot compensate for bad ideas, composition, arrangement or planning with sound quality.
well polished crap is still crap.

QFT !

But they try ...



Bud

[garyb]

[yayajohn]

The old electronica scene might have been the exception,- but what we got from Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze and some others in the past was still better than what we hear in large quantity today.

Well Bud as it turns out we no longer need Tangerine Dream in this day and age. They've been digitized!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdCtJ6NwVXM

Can't wait to download this! A couple of mouse clicks and I'll sound JUST like them!