How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

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petal
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by petal »

valis wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:24 am
Edited out

So the top 5 machines listed have all housed Scope, though I sold the Q67 era system to build an 8700K system for 3DS Max & Maya modeling needs. For all of the machines that have housed Scope, I have been able to resolve my issues to the point of acceptable performance for Scope and other tasks that run alongside it. This is in 19-20 years of Scope use mind you.

Edited out

In all of the above cases I have achieved no clicks,
Thanks for sharing your method Valis! I'm looking forward to see the modern system you end up with. Hopefully you get a clickfree system and share the valuable knowledge of how to achieve that. I can't help noticing though, that the systems you are listing are all from an area, where I also always was able to make a system click free.

I too have been with Scope for the past 18 years and had my PCI-cards and later the XITE too go through 5-6 different builds. And I have always been able to make it work click free. In some cases I had to accept a higher ULLI than the lowest, but it was still acceptable. But usually I didn't spend more than a few hours to get to an acceptable point.

It wasn't until the latest two builds + windows 10 I've now arrived in a situation, where I can not get a click free system.
The latest two PC's are using the same motherboards as SonicCore, specifically to prevent me from having to go through this valley of clicks.

The only thing that keep the SCOPE-flame burning here at this point, is other peoples reports about clickfree systems. Then again, there are the other reports about users in the same boat as me.

I have been at it for a month now. Same experience on two different systems that on paper should work!
If there was an easy solution to this problem, I would have found it by now. The current guidelines delivered by SonicCore simply isn't doing the trick. There is more to it than that.

Gary - Do you think it would be possible to get more detailed information about how exactly SonicCore optimized the Asus H370 Mobo's BIOS?
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valis
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by valis »

Note I've been able to use 3ms ULLI on every system I've used, although on the oldest system from 2001 7ms is often more useful.

In regards to the Windows 10 issues, it seems to me there must be some issue common on the systems that are affected. It seems likely this isn't a BIOS setting or something as simple as power profile, though without walking through the chain of events on each system I can't say that with certainty.

However this is why a single install on the affected systems is something Gary (and I) recommend, regardless of how other installs are partitioned (boot manager, bios setting or etc) it seems unnecessary to setup so much without first having something working. I realize that for some their Scope system may be the ONLY system they're using, so this may necessitate the complexity. However it seems ideal to me to build a system 'on the bench' until it's working, and keep it in the simplest state(s) possible until Scope is working. I think I outlined that already, but this accounts for many things: driver updates, windows updates (each of which can sometimes cause problems), other software updates (even with just basic applications installed and antivirus etc, sometimes these can be problematic).

Doing an image as soon as Windows boots means you can easily step back to this initial working state, and though USB based installs are rather speedy these days it does speed up getting 'back to square 1' rather easily. I also trust this more than the built in windows refresh mechanism(s). It might be a good idea to even start here with verifying Scope, but that would necessitate some basic driver installs to get Scope working and any VisC redists etc.

I then would do any missing drivers (but not yet replace default windows drivers for GPU or etc), basic apps (mostly AV, my preferred text editor and so on) and critical windows updates, and then test Scope. If I found it click-free (perhaps not even a DAW at this point, which means using Bidule or something to test ASIO/ULLI) then I would again create an image and say 'this is known-good'. Were I to find issues at this point, I would document the things that changed since my starting point (the image above) and then start to only apply the differences a few at a time, until I could zero in on a potential cause. If things are still ok, I would instead make this my 'known-good image' and start to build up further.

Testing 'on the bench' (meaning I am not yet considering the system 'deployed') and building up from each 'known-good' state means that when clicks or other issues creep in, I have the ability to determine the differences between my known-good state and the state of the machine where it has issues. Again identifying driver changes, MS updates, VisC redistributions and so on all would come first, and then after than a look at any differences in installed applications or other things that are going to be resident in memory and so on.

This is a very process oriented approach, and allows easy identification of changes (deltas) step by step, with the possibility of reverting back to any previous state that was issue-free to apply those deltas one by one or in groups so that things can be identified as you go. I'm repeating myself both in this post and with previous posts to attempt to clarify how one goes about this in my experience. If I were to find that I had problems even with my initial installation, I would have to consider slot order, bios settings and such. Building your system up to where you have all apps and drivers and your DAW software installed, and then determining that you have problems... well you can see how many variables are now in play to troubleshoot.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by dante »

petal wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 1:15 am Dante. If I recall correctly you have a current z390 installation. Did you do anything in the BIOS or in Windows beyond the normal recommended optimization in order to get a click free system? And is your Windows SCOPE-installation fully updated with all the newest updates?
Nope - I haven't touched bios or any windows settings yet - the machine is as per stock vendor build. So if I have any issues I can still tweak BIOS etc. Running latest XITE Scope 7, Windows 10 etc. All software and DAW's to latest versions (UAD, Reason, Harrison).

The issues I've had with clicks and pops :

1) ADAT port requiring compressed air (and when problem persisted replaced with SP/DIF)
2) Clean power supply - special 'Thor' filter
3) Keep DC cables away from AC cables as much as possible.
4) WiFi - try disabling to see if an issue.
Last edited by dante on Fri May 08, 2020 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by garyb »

no bios changes beyond the v7 pdf....

i do as few teaks as possible, and have produced soooo many click-free systems...
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by valis »

petal wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 8:08 am I can't help noticing though, that the systems you are listing are all from an area, where I also always was able to make a system click free.
The reason these systems are from a similar era (though I disagree somewhat as the AM3+ socket and 1155 socket aren't THAT old) is because 1) I have them already when it comes time to move Scope cards around and 2) as we have all noted PCI slots are getting harder & harder to come by. I'd rather focus a new system around modern tech and utilize my Scope PCI cards where they are best suited. If I absolutely had to have an Intel 9/10 generation system with Scope I'd have taken Dante's cause up for an Xite full force :wink:
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by garyb »

yes, the socket 1155 era does not work. i have been saying that for some time. before that, and after that have been very few problems.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by dante »

Yeah, mines an LGA 1151 and prior to that an LGA 1150
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by petal »

garyb wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 3:24 pm no bios changes beyond the v7 pdf....

i do as few teaks as possible, and have produced soooo many click-free systems...
That approach have been tried and tested on two systems here, and it has unfortunately not produced click-free systems.

Both systems has been minimal, both on the hardware side and on the software side. Windows 10 virgin as sweet 16. No extra software than what is needed to make SCOPE work and run tests.

V7 pdf in hand and then move on from there. It is not producing a click free system here.
Last edited by petal on Tue May 05, 2020 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by garyb »

then there is something in the system that is stealing CPU cycles. it is not the Scope driver, specifically.
it could also be a vst plugin.

i recognize that there are people such as yourself who have this problem, but most do not.

Scope is sensitive to greedy apps(plugins or whatever). a click or pop means that Windows was not able to keep up with the audio stream. since Scope is realtime(i keep saying this), it cannot wait for the CPU to be ready for or with data. pops and clicks are missing data, data lost in transfer. clock issues also produce missing data.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by valis »

And saying 'brand X soundcard works fine' isn't a valid comparison as Scope is relying on the host system for more than just shuffling ASIO data between the host and Scope system, which is why GaryB is stressing something stealing cycles being so important. And that's why I have given a workflow to 'build up' a system in stages and test things at each point, so it's easier to isolate exactly what's at fault in our complex software and hardware ecosystems.

Waiting until facebook videos play audio, VPN's are working for 'late night habits', torrenting seeds are going and audio and video software is all installed to start troubleshooting is basically saying you want to make a cocktail out of half of the ingredients the bar stocks before figuring out which double malt really suits you best.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by dante »

I just remembered WiFi caused clicks and pops on my previous system - not so much on new one. But yeah try disabling.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by petal »

Thanks Dante, but the Asus H370-plus doesn't have Wifi.

Gary: I'm open to any suggestions at this point. I wonder what that something could be? I only have Windows 10, Scope 7 and Ableton 10 installed. Nothing else. All is newly installed (and updated) on a single partioned NVMe/SSD/HDD (I've tried all three) not using dualboot.
My test project has gone from a simple wave file looping to 35+ VSTi's full CPU load projects. It makes now difference.
After clicks have been detected I optimize BIOS and Windows using the guidelines provided by SonicCore. Still getting clicks.
I know that Scope is sensitive. I've been using both the PCI cards for 18 years and the Xite for 8 years in several different builds. I've always been able to make it work, until now.
The new piece in the puzzle is Windows 10.

Valis: I only mentioned the Elektron ASIO driver as working to inform that the computer is capable. I know that Scope is different though.
I'm pretty sure I am following your method and "building up" the system in stages. I have only installed the bare essentials to actually be able to test the system. Which is where I am now.
There are no late night habits being served on my music installations - I whish the solution was that simple, but I'm sure the cocktail is pure :)

I bought a new 750W Corsair PSU yesterday. It was the last piece of hardware that had not been tried shifted out. The new PSU made no difference.

At this point I'm pretty sure it is not a hardware problem, unless it's the PCI cards or the XITE, but it seems unlikely that they would both produce the same type of random clicks.
You tell me that Windows 10 is supposed to be easy, but for some reason I can't make it work. What could I have missed in Windows 10, that wouldn't be fixed by the guidelines provided by SonicCore and the recommendations in this and other similar threads?
Last edited by petal on Fri May 08, 2020 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by al_bot »

petal, do you get pops/clicks when using the Wave driver or only on ASIO?
I get pops/clicks with ASIO in Cakewalk but no pops/clicks with ASIO and Reason.
And no pops/clicks with Wave driver in Cakewalk.
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valis
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by valis »

petal, I hope my posts don't seem pedantic or overly vitriolic. It's hard for us to know what happens on the other end of an internet line so we're just being as informative as possible.

With your current system are you only using Xite?
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by petal »

Valis I understand that it is difficult to guide and help people over the internet. I'm just happy that there actually is a place where I can find help :)

In my current system (and the old one) I have both the PCI cards and the Xite installed, but I have tested both systems with only the Xite installed and no PCI-cards in the systems.

AI-bot, I havn't tried running Ableton with the Wave driver, but will check it out.
I wanted to test with Cubase as well, but unfortunately Steinbergs eLincenser software is fucked I think, so I can't make it work atm so I can test it.
That said, the Scope ASIO driver is indeed the center of my attention. I'm not saying that it is flawed, but everything points at that bottleneck, as the point where the clicks are introduced.

I'm not getting a lot of clicks, but the system is not click free.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by valis »

Let's troubleshoot just Xite or PCI before worrying about getting everything working. Which would you choose?
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by petal »

OK - Let's focus on the XITE then - I'll put the PCI cards in the even older 875k system I have. It was the last system I had that was click free, but I never ran windows 10 on it, so that will be interesting to see if that will work.
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by valis »

Right. Now we also shouldn't have to worry about PCI overflows as a cause either. Is the Xite sharing with anything, physically or address range wise?
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by dante »

petal wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:50 pm
I wanted to test with Cubase as well, but unfortunately Steinbergs eLincenser software is fucked I think, so I can't make it work atm so I can test it.
Do Steinburg have a demo version u can test that doesn’t need eLicense ?
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Re: How to optimize windows 10 for Scope to avoid clicks and pops!?

Post by petal »

Dante: Good idea! Ill find a few demo's of DAWs and check those as well.

Valis, I've now removed the PCI-cards from the new build and the conflicts/sharing and the IRQs now lok like this:
Conflicts-Sharing ASUS H370 only XITE no SCOPE PCI-cards.png
Conflicts-Sharing ASUS H370 only XITE no SCOPE PCI-cards.png (33.85 KiB) Viewed 16596 times
IRQs ASUS H370 only XITE no SCOPE PCI-cards.png
IRQs ASUS H370 only XITE no SCOPE PCI-cards.png (24.43 KiB) Viewed 16596 times
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